On 2 year anniversary of Mike Brown's death, words still matter

"Xyl0c41n3" (i-am-xyl0c41n3) 08/09/2016 at 12:47 • Filed to: Black Lives Matter, Mike Brown, Darren Wilson, Ferguson, Media, Journalism, Media Bias, All Lives Matter, Off topic

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Two years ago today, 18-year-old Mike Brown was fatally shot by Darren Wilson, a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. Demonstrations which began as vigils of grief in the small Missouri town ultimately birthed the Black Lives Matter movement; across the country, Brown’s death became a catalyst for protests against racial inequality the likes of which have not been seen since the Civil Rights Era.

But how much has changed since Aug. 9, 2014? Not much, unfortunately.

According to a Huffington Post article published just !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (July 7), 136 black people have been killed by police officers in 2016 alone. The narrative between the black community and law enforcement has remained largely the same.

As Black Lives Matter has gained national prominence, push-back via the emergence of phrases like “All Lives Matter” or “Blue Lives Matter” attempt to erase the truth carried within that simple, three-word motto: “Yes, all lives matter, but some don’t matter as much in this country and we aim to change that.”

Part of the issue is that systemic racism exists in every facet of American life, including the part of it responsible for recording and sharing our common history: the media.

Less than a week after his death, and before the phrase “Black Lives Matter” was coined, Jezebel picked up a piece I wrote that examined how racial bias in print media skewed the story of Mike Brown, and by extension, many of the stories of people of color.

As a media professional, I can absolutely say this is something that still happens everyday. It’s something even I, a Latina, struggle with myself when covering stories within my own community. I was angry at my colleagues in 2014 for the biases through which they reported. I’m still angry now. We can do better.

I hope you take the time to read the piece if you haven’t already.

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Top image credit: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Gamecat235 > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:03

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Watching the livestreams from the protests those first few nights was a glimpse into a world that people need to see.

And seeing people like @minosec here was inspiring. I spent weeks afterward watching, sharing content, and writing letters to politicians (I avoided local protests, for more than a few reasons).

(With this video: I had a cached version of the stream and this message seemed sooo strong, so I ripped it from the stream and posted it that night, staying up until 3 AM to do so).

Ash78, voting early and often > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:05

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I hate to ever seem skeptical over these kinds of issues, but the key question for me is whether this is more of a pure police brutality issue or a racism issue. In other words, if Castile, Brown, or Sterling had been white and in the same area, behaving the exact same way, would the result have been the same? Or another way, if those black men had been in different settings during these confrontations, would it have gone differently? Human nature reacts to a “mosaic” of circumstances, so neighborhoods, time of day, officer fatigue all come into play in addition to his racial biases (if any). Are there any good stats on the total number of people shot/killed by cops, organize by race? I haven’t seen anything yet but would love to become more educated and definitive in my position(s).

Conan > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:06

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It’s terrible. I still think we should pay more attention to the drug laws/drug demand that fuel the tortured relationship the police have with poor communities.

No More College Granddad > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:06

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I can’t believe it’s been 2 years. Shit.

As for me, I'm pretty much numb to this. The only thing I can feel is, live life until some copies murders me. I know that's not good but with literally no one trying to help us (if I wasn't on break I'd rant about blm) so all that's left is hope. Not hoping things will get better but hoping I'm not the next to get shot.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:18

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when I saw how many blacks had been shot by cops my reaction was holy shit, thats a lot. I then started wondering how many whites had been shot.

“Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post , 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black.”

it doesn;t sound as bad when you see how many whites are killed too. I’m not saying there isn;t a problem, maybe that the problem is even worse than its made out to be because everyone focuses on the race aspect to get more clicks.

Berang > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:18

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Washington Post charted every reported police shooting last year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/natio…

There is undeniably an overlapping of racism, police brutality, incompetence, and other issues. Although not always all of those problems in every instance, but for media’s sake it’s more entertaining (and probably profitable) to conflate every issue, or ignore one explanation if another theory might get more viewers.

Xyl0c41n3 > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:19

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Funny you should ask. Over and over again, the data shows that black people are killed at disproportionately higher rates than any other racial or ethnic group.

It is absolutely a racial issue.

I’ll say it again:

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It doesn’t matter what setting a black person is in, they are overwhelmingly treated differently by cops. From a licensed therapist who was trying to help his patient, to a man shopping in a Walmart , to a child playing alone in a park.

Please do not insult me, black people, or other POC by trying to explain ANY of this as “wrong place, wrong time” or “maybe you’re just misunderstanding what the extenuating circumstances were,” or “human nature.”

Racism is real, and it is systemic.

Systemic means it impacts EVERY facet of our lives, including law enforcement and the criminal justice system.

Also, here’s a handy visual aid courtesy Vice from 2015 . I’d read the whole piece, it’s really interesting.

DipodomysDeserti > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:19

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It’s hard to find stats on police killings because we have so many different police departments, and they aren’t required to report to anyone when someone is killed. However, the Washington Post has been doing an investigation on the subject since last year. Here’s an article on it. At the time of this article, 1,502 people had been killed by police officers. 732 (49%) were white and 381 (24%) were black . Whites make up 62% of the US population and blacks make up only 13%. So, according to the Washington Post’s ongoing investigation, blacks are more likely to be killed by police.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nati…

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:19

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is this that kid that robbed a store then punched the shit out of a cop and tried to steal his gun? why are we celebrating him?

Ash78, voting early and often > DipodomysDeserti 08/09/2016 at 13:23

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Thanks for the link, I couldn’t get the attached links from the OP to work. That’s not as wildly disparate as I was expecting. I’m not enough of a statistician to even attempt this, but I think you could further “control for” incidents that happen in comparable areas, comparable times of days, etc. What I’m getting at is that if cop-on-black confrontations tend to happen more in bad areas, during times of heightened tensions, often at 3am, then it doesn’t help the situation or the stats (for anyone). I still believe — as others have stated — that the culture of various PDs are disproportionately driven by racist bosses, which is probably one of the biggest elements.

Jayhawk Jake > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:23

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Whites are killed by police more than blacks, but the percentage split differs from the racial distribution in the US. However, crime rate distribution is not similar to racial distribution, so it could be concluded that the difference is more down to who commits crimes rather than what race they are.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-st…

Statistics basically says the fatality rate is lower than would be expected, but only if we assume that fatality by police is related directly to crimes committed.

Of course, I disclaimer this only citing this one reasonably well cited article. I have seen others, but don’t really care to take the time to find it. Use your best judgement.

yamahog > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 13:26

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That’s why it’s important to understand statistics. Black people are *disproportionately* killed by police, which does not necessarily mean that they have the largest number of deaths compared to any other race.

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 13:26

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13% of the US population is black. If cops are killing 2x as many whites as blacks, then that means that a black person is something like 3x as likely to be killed by police than as a white person.

Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula > Gamecat235 08/09/2016 at 13:26

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I think it showed the power of social media in really keeping the protests and the murders of blacks people in the head line. It's always happened but black twitter really galvanized this into a movement and a needed but often frustratingly maligned conversation

Ash78, voting early and often > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:26

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I’m very sympathetic to systemic racism — I live in Birmingham, AL, the epicenter of a lot of America’s historical racist issues and struggles. We tend to have this drilled into us, and I completely agree that we’re talking about unwinding hundreds of years of ingrained habits, cultures, and advantages/deficits that can’t simply be overcome in an instant. I’m purely talking numbers, and I keep seeing way too much anecdote and pure numbers, and a lot less on rates or other “deep analysis.” It’s not necessarily beneficial to do this analysis because it might give ammunition to people who think PDs don’t need change from the top — they most definitely do. Fortunately, things around here have been pretty calm in the wake of all the recent chaos (our mayor and police chief are both black, as is most of the force).

Jayhawk Jake > No More College Granddad 08/09/2016 at 13:27

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That seems like an awfully unfair and poisonous way to look at police, don’t you think?

Assuming you’ll be gunned down is a gross overreaction, and frankly dangerous to harbor that attitude towards the police force.

Additionally, what gives you the impression that ‘nobody is trying to help’ you? There’s a large social movement and police forces around the country are offering help (see Wichita officers arranging community events, Dallas police force encouraging people to join them and help make a change).

You can do more than hope, you can get active. Talk to your local police departments, write your representatives at the local and national government levels. Change doesn’t just happen, something needs to spark it.

Xyl0c41n3 > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 13:27

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Except whites are still the majority of the people in this country. When you adjust for population density, blacks are killed at disproportionately larger rates.

If I have five red grapes and 15 white grapes and I eat three red grapes while I eat five white grapes, sure, I’ve eaten more white grapes, but statistically, I’m still eating more red grapes than I am white grapes. Eating five white grapes means I’ve only consumed one-third of my white grapes. Eating three red grapes means I’ve consumed three-fifths of my red grapes.

Make sense now?

Here’s a link to skychismo’s comment, which also explains it and links to a story about the racial disparity that exists in law enforcement:

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/be-careful-whi…

Also, here’s a Vice story from 2015 that I linked in another comment: https://news.vice.com/article/police…

Milky > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 13:28

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Thats what you choose to quote from that article and not this?

The rate at which unarmed black men were more likely than unarmed white men to die by police gunfire had dropped, but was still six-to-one.

Yes cops shoot more white people, the U.S. is 77% white.

Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:28

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Look, I’m not gonna argue that there is racism in america. There is. I’ve seen it. I am a tolerant person with people of all races. Except people from Jersey.

But, when I come to Oppo, its for cars. I know, we get off topic. I work 6 jobs during the summer, and in my solace is in cars, meaning oppo, generally.

Where I come from (NW Iowa) everyone is very conservative. I would be described as more liberal. I spend my whole day with people that are jumping on the trump train or whatever and its annoying as hell.

When I get home and log on to oppo, I want peace. So please, buffer image next time?

Thanks.

Xyl0c41n3 > Conan 08/09/2016 at 13:30

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K.

Except you’re already inserting a racially-tinged opinion into what the root of racism is. Yes, drug laws and the enforcement of those laws unfairly targets POC, especially POC within poor communities, but the demand for drugs isn’t solely a POC issue. Whites use drugs just as often, if not more, than POC.

Racism and racist policing practices go FAR BEYOND drugs, dude. Black people being viewed as inherently more dangerous, more criminal, more prone to drug use and violence, that is an American problem, not just a problem over which side of the train tracks someone lives on.

Spridget > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 13:30

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Because he brought the police brutality issue to the national forefront. No one knows for sure if Brown really tried to grab Wilson’s gun, but we do know that he was shot up multiple times. Police have tasers for self defense, which Wilson should have used. The consitution states that every man is due a fair and impartial trial, and Michael Brown didn’t get one.

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:31

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devils advocate but if blacks statistically commit more crimes than whites then isn’t the data correct in showing a higher percent of blacks get shot by police? also why are you focusing on cop on black crime and not black on black crime which is much worse?

jjhats > Spridget 08/09/2016 at 13:32

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yes he did.

Xyl0c41n3 > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:34

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You’re making my eye twitch.

Xyl0c41n3 > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 13:36

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Ima just let you sit here in your ignorance for all to see.

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:37

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ok that’s easier than crafting a rebuttal that makes sense or uses logic.

Xyl0c41n3 > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 13:38

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You still here with your racist self? Bless your heart.

Xyl0c41n3 > No More College Granddad 08/09/2016 at 13:42

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I know, GD. And I’m sorry.

(FTR: I’ve got my own criticisms of some of the facets of BLM, so I’m sure you and I could have quite an interesting discussion about it. Maybe when you’re not on break?)

Hugs and love, my friend.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. 08/09/2016 at 13:43

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Especially when there are other user content run blogs more focused of these sort of articles/issues.

pauljones > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:44

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Then communicate a little further. Reading both of your comments, you both definitely appear to be on different pages. I get where each of you are coming from, but you guys aren’t quite there yet.

He seems to be misunderstanding your point. Where is he coming from, and how can you help him get to where you are?

I’ve known (as much as you can “know” someone on an internet blog) Ash78 for almost seven years - he’s one of the most reasonable (and hilarious) people I’ve seen on Jalopnik/Oppositelock. He’s always a good person to just talk and discuss topics with.

Dusty Ventures > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:46

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How about some stats? 7% of white people killed by police were unarmed. 14% of black people killed by police were unarmed. That's quite the discrepancy.

Berang > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:46

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They didn’t dismiss all other causes, you know.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Milky 08/09/2016 at 13:48

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i had like 30 seconds to find it before getting back to work. I just found the number i was looking for, I’m sure there are many more disturbing statistics

k2b: da man trynta steal mah bloggy!!!!!!! > Spridget 08/09/2016 at 13:50

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This is a point that seems to be lost on all the apologists and explainers. People (and yes especially black people) are being denied the right to a fair trial or even charges when cops take it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner. That’s not their job. Their job is to protect people, no matter how (often irrationally) frightened they are for themselves. People say that cops are human and make mistakes, but when we give them the power and the authority they have, they have to be better than just an ordinary guy on the street who easily panics and can’t tell the difference between one weapon and another. They have a greater responsibility to be calm, and just, and fair, they are failing miserably.

DipodomysDeserti > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:50

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One of their articles talks about how they found unarmed people are more likely to be shot in higher crime areas as well. And higher crime areas have higher proportions of minorities...

This is definitely not a simple issue. There are layers upon layers of complications here that have existed for centuries.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > yamahog 08/09/2016 at 13:52

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In 2015, 96% of people shot by police were men. Does that mean the police are sexist too?

Ash78, voting early and often > pauljones 08/09/2016 at 13:52

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I hope I’m understanding the point...maybe I’m cynical, but too much of the media tends to be sensational, anecdotal, etc. It sells stories. It fuels movements. Most important of all, it drives change. But I’m trying to take a step back (in part, as a data-based guy) to figure out if anyone has come up with the “Smoking Gun Stat” if you’ll pardon the horrible word choice there. In an ideal world, a high-quality simulation would help us figure out if a suspect’s appearance is material to the PD behavior, or whether it’s just as much due to correlation to other factors that just happen to penalize non-whites unfairly. I’m just thinking out loud...#seniorweek. And thanks for the kind words. I write nothing on this site that I wouldn't say to people in person, face to face.

Conan > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:53

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Nah. I think white America is the largest factor in the demand and why the laws are terrible. It’s everybody’s problem. And I think when we have Nixon’s advisers specifically saying it was targeting we all have to face up to it. Barring the drug excuse I think a lot would be different.

k2b: da man trynta steal mah bloggy!!!!!!! > Jayhawk Jake 08/09/2016 at 13:53

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Expecting to get shot isn’t entirely unrealistic, sadly. Let me leave this here for you. Maybe it will help.

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:54

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newsflash facts aren’t racist

yamahog > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 08/09/2016 at 13:58

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Possibly. If police had a 200+ year history of unfairly targeting men as a whole, regardless of race, in order to pad crime statistics to align with their bias, I’d certainly be interested in that development.

yamahog > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 13:59

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“I just found the number i was looking for”

That explains so much.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 13:59

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do whites commit an proportional amount of crimes to blacks by population? (i dont know and i dont have time to research it right now) so if blacks commit 6 of 9 crimes and whites 3 of 9, and 1/10 people who commit a crime are shot it would give a proportional rate not based on race.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 13:59

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the key question for me is whether this is more of a pure police brutality issue or a racism issue.

*sigh*

I have neither time nor energy to get into this today – even as the fact that some people are arguing with the author as to whether these prejudices even exist** - so I’ll try to say this as simply as I can:

It can always be both.

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**memo: OBVIOUSLY THEY DO, or why would she even have thought to write it??

I can’t imagine s/he doesn’t have ten thousand other things to do with his/her time, but if your very survival and/or the survival of those who are related to you / look just like you is institutionally threatened, literally and continually, you do what you have to do.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 14:01

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I’m going to guess you didn’t see this

or this

before you wrote that.

OPPOsaurus WRX > yamahog 08/09/2016 at 14:02

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well if you included the rest of my reply it would explain even more

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 14:06

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The manipulation of facts can be racist , though.

People can be intentionally racist; they can also say & do things unintentionally that have disparately racist impact .

People are the ones who manipulate said facts.

(Are you one of those Ailes-sent trolls ?)

yamahog > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:06

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I’m seeing that in the conversations below, most of those taking offense to the topic in general did not even bother to read the post, which is specifically focused on media representation, and then ironically proving OP’s point about biased language in reporting driving the narratives you are all still using 2 years after the fact.

And as a friendly reminder, mods are in the thread, and you will follow rule #1 as always.

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:07

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your still not proving anything.......come back to me when you want to discuss actual crime statistics not just color of skin.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 14:07

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I did not

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:07

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Yes there are issues, but I’m just going to put this here.. I said it once in a reply but want it up front.

He didn’t look like that when he was shot. He robbed a store and assaulted an officer.

This was the guy in question. Not a middle schooler.

Please anyone here. Rob a store and assault a police officer. Tell me how you end up.

Jayhawk Jake > k2b: da man trynta steal mah bloggy!!!!!!! 08/09/2016 at 14:08

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So because one person was killed you have to assume you’ll get shot?

A plane crashed last week in Oklahoma. Should I assume I’ll die if I fly? The statistics say it’s highly unlikely, but I guess because that one guy was killed I should just assume I’ll get killed too.

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem. I’m not trying to discount concerns of racism or police bias. I’m just saying approaching every interaction with police from the standpoint of ‘this guy might kill me’ is dangerous.

Should I approach every Muslim thinking ‘this guy might blow himself up and take me with’? Fuck no, so why should it be any different with police?

pauljones > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 14:10

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It’s all good, I get where you’re coming from in terms of data. But I think that part of what Xyl0 is getting at here is that when you start trying to look at data sets in a particularly narrow way outside of context, it becomes very easy to draw conclusions that the data doesn’t actually point to. Let’s operate from the assumption that data is data - from a hypothetical standpoint, it can never be wrong. It is what is. Only the interpretation of the data can be right or wrong.

Let me give you an example from my world: I occasionally work in business development and contract proposal development. When I do, my job is to look at an RFP, digest the statement of work requirements, and figure out if a company can do the work based on past and current performance. Let’s say that the SOW requirements are for systems engineering, and the requirements go into great detail of the minutia of every painful little detail that goes into satellite systems engineering. If you start narrowing down your data search to one hyper-specific detail in the SOW requirements, you’ll invariably come to the conclusion that the company can’t do the work because they’ve never done anything like it. But the truth is very different - the fact that you cannot find that hyper-specific detail doesn’t necessarily mean that they haven’t done it; it may mean that it just wasn’t well documented. Even if they truly haven’t had any experience, that doesn’t mean they can’t do the job - systems integration is a huge puzzle to solve, and if you can put together 98% of the puzzle, you have a qualified and capable understanding of the overall process, and where and how that one hyper-specific detail fits in. In other words, you can do the job.

What I think that Xyl0 is trying to point out is that by taking the approach that you are - narrowing down to one hyper-specific metric - you’re losing sight of the overall puzzle. It may be factually accurate to assert that vastly more black people are shot in a predominantly black neighborhood than any other ethnicity in the same neighborhood. But in and of itself, that does not constitute a justification for saying that systemic racism is not, in fact, present in a significant way.

John the Wet Blanket > Jayhawk Jake 08/09/2016 at 14:11

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A lot of these “non-compliance” narratives are built post-hoc by police departments trying to justify the use of lethal force on someone who was no threat or even not doing anything illegal at the time of the stop. “Obey police demands even if they are stupid or unjustified” is not the law. It is a sort of “don’t mess with the local gang” type of thuggishness that the people who enforce the law tolerate because they won’t prosecute their own and the hero worship of cops that is rampant in this country. It is good advice in the same way that “don’t mess with the local gang” is good advice. It does not make the reason it is a good idea right.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > yamahog 08/09/2016 at 14:12

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Point being, men commit a disproportionate amount of crime. The statistics reflect that fact. The same applies to black people and the fact that as a group, they commit a disproportionate amount of crime (also, it hasn't always been this way). Just like not all men are criminals, neither are all black people. Spouting crap about how police are unfairly targeting blacks solves nothing. Instead, we should figure out what leads to the higher rates of criminality (maybe lack of quality education, poverty, and the breakdown of the nuclear family?) and seek to solve those issues.

Xyl0c41n3 > pauljones 08/09/2016 at 14:19

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When did I ever offer an opinion on Ash, pauljones, especially a negative one? I generally like him, too. But I won’t mince words just because I like someone.

Xyl0c41n3 > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 14:20

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you’re*

jjhats > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:21

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still waiting on those crime stats bro

Needmoargarage > Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. 08/09/2016 at 14:24

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I’m completely with you on this. I get there are issues...I really do. I have my opinions on those issues and offer my support accordingly.

However, when I get sick of the mess that is currently my Facebook feed, mainstream media, etc. I come to Oppo for a break from all the anger and keyboard warriors. Absolutely hate it when somebody brings it here.

yamahog > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 08/09/2016 at 14:26

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Do not accuse others of “spouting crap” when you are parroting the same type of racist tropes OP has shown to be a persistent issue in reporting.

Milky > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 14:26

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A Ferguson fact for ya:

Between 2012 & 2014 black drivers were twice as likely to be searched in a traffic stop and 26% less likely to be be found with contraband.

Gamecat235 > Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. 08/09/2016 at 14:32

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I posted this when the indictment announcement came down (on Thanksgiving eve, 2014): http://oppositelock.kinja.com/an-open-messag…

The message still holds true. We’re a community, and sometimes people want to share experiences that have nothing to do with cars. Be they music, travel, photography, the judicial system, their kids, whatever.

We need to be supportive of each other, and when you see something that you don’t want to read? Don’t read it.

jjhats > Milky 08/09/2016 at 14:32

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maybe because everyone in ferguson is black....duh

pauljones > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:35

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That’s not what I was getting at.

What I was trying to understand was commenting with “You’re making my eye twitch” and just leaving it at that. I understand that explaining this sort of thing over and over again is probably one of the most frustrating things in the world, and gets old really, really fast; especially for a person that has the passion to change things that you do. Knowing that, though, your reply to him suprised me. He’s not trying to troll or be difficult; he’s just coming from a different place. When I said that Ash is a good guy, that’s what I was getting at. It seems to me that you both aren’t quite understanding each other’s perspective.

If you want to say, “You’re making my eye twitch,” then by all means, knock it out. But I think that it would be more constructive to say, “You’re making my eye twitch, and here’s why...”

Just my two cents.

Gamecat235 > Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula 08/09/2016 at 14:38

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This was a watershed moment for the movement to coalesce around. It provided the ingredients for it to form into something bigger, and for a larger group to start collectively asking questions and to form into a more organized group when needed.

It was fascinating to watch it all happen. I still follow many people and blogs from this and the events that followed.

Milky > jjhats 08/09/2016 at 14:38

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and yet more white people had illegal shit on them .... huh.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula 08/09/2016 at 14:45

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Further marginalized as FB gives police the attempt to monitor and remove FB Live posts ...

Milky > yamahog 08/09/2016 at 14:45

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Funny how this topic always turns into a shit show.

pauljones > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 14:45

2

Also, for the record, my second example of the proportion of ethnicities getting shot in one area or another was meant as just that - another example. I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth or assert that that was what you were getting at.

Rico > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 14:51

0

I just think cops need to rethink escalation and body cameras will do a great deal in helping that. If a cop NEEDS to shoot someone especially if they are armed or about to do severe harm the video will prove that.

A video released a couple of weeks ago showed cops shooting a person who happened to be black but the video showed them removing a revolver from his hands it was plain as can see. There was no cut in the video for a gun to be planted or anything crazy like that.

The problem is, cops rile each other up once one of them pulls out their service weapon. When someone pulls out a gun whether it’s a good guy or a bad guy everyone’s adrenaline starts pumping.

Like the video of the black guy with the autistic man in which the guy is laying on his back yet cops not even 50 FT away are aiming assault rifles at him and the autistic guy. Cops take a situation that anyone in the military can resolve tactically and escalate it, anyone with a pair of binoculars (they have tons of ex-military equipment but not $20 binocs?) could see the autistic guy had a toy truck in his hand and not a gun as it was reported to 911, seeing that there was no threat.

Instead they take cover and all pull out assault rifles which makes all the other cops think this situation is now life or death and that they are all at risk of getting killed so with their adrenaline pumping they all are screaming with their guns drawn, not a clear minded person in the group. Oh and they shot the black guy, while he was on his back, after explaining the autistic guy had a toy in his hand.

MUSASHI66 > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 14:53

40

Before I even write anything, any cop that shoots a person without a reason should go to jail, bar none. “I was afraid for my life” is not enough of a defense.

I also voted democrat last two times, and have some pretty liberal views on many social issues, so I am not a right wing nut.

That said....

My good buddy, very black - 1st generation from Ethiopia - has no issues with cops, ever.

My other buddy, his dad from Africa, mom from Mexico, for all intents and purposes a black dude with dreads, driving an Escalade, no issues with cops.

My next door neighbor, her mom, her sister, her brother, all very Latino - first generation Bolivian, and guess what - no issues with cops.

My buddy from the dog park - black and gay - no issues with cops.

I can go down the list of POC I know which have no issues with cops, ever.

What to they have in common - they are normal, regular, average Joe citizens living their life without committing crimes, and if ever pulled over by the cops, they are respectful and when the stop is done, they go on their merry way.

There is one group of people which has issues with cops, and that’s thugs - white, black, Latino or Asian.

Mike Brown? Grand Jury found the cop not guilty, and he was a huge dude, and he just robbed a store.

Alton Sterling? Cops responded to a call about a guy with a gun, he carried in his pocket, resisted arrest, and fought the cops.

List goes on and on.

Wanna know why cops shoot people?

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Statistics are just statistics - the fact that cops shoot more black people than other races is just a number afaiac. Is it unfathomable to imagine that there is a reason behind that?

Is it really hard to imagine why a cop would shoot a person with videos like this, and the comments by the guy recording?

Is it impossible that there simply are more criminal acts committed in the ghetto or the projects, by the POC, and that because of that, police have more presence in those areas and arrest/shoot more POC?

Is it unfathomable that there would be more shootings in a crime ridden areas which happens to be black than in a very rich, gated community which is mostly white?

There are more than one million cops in the USA. On average, there are 144 cops which die in the line of duty in this country every year, one every 61 hours. Watch the first video I posted if you want to see why cops might be trigger happy.

Watch a Tueller Drill video and realize that a person, armed with a knife or even just their hands can be on top of you in 1.8 seconds from a distance of 21ft. I did this test with a 60+ year old fat guy with a hip replacement and he was on top of me in 2.2 seconds. A very good shooter, with a gun in a holster without a mechanical safety, can draw and shoot in 1.2 seconds when being timed and ready, and that times changes dramatically under pressure or when not ready, or with certain holsters that require an extra step to release a gun.

There are plenty of white people killed by the cops, way more than black numerically, just less statistically.

You are very correct that there is racism - it is alive and well in this country. What you are forgetting to account for is that racism goes both ways, and these days it is blatantly obvious in some POC communities towards the evil, white cops.

There will always be cases where cops did something that they should not have done, and I would love for them to own it and be responsible for it. I hope that body cameras will be a great push towards finding a way to do this.

Ash78, voting early and often > pauljones 08/09/2016 at 15:00

3

No worries. I always feel like I’m at a disadvantage on the Internet because most people (not talking about Xylo here) have countless hours of research — or at least talking points — lined up and I’m usually coming at it from a casual discussion POV. Half the time it’s like wandering into the middle of gunfight. Everyone arguing is already read to go, chips on shoulders, comments pre-loaded. I don't watch cable news or read much Op-Ed, so I'm almost always coming from a clean slate on these issues.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > yamahog 08/09/2016 at 15:05

3

You’d think it was rocket science topped off with a dash of transfinite mathematics, wouldn’t you ...?

Xyl0c41n3 > pauljones 08/09/2016 at 15:22

0

Now you’re making my eye twitch.

Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 15:26

3

Ugh, fucking facebook.

pauljones > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 15:26

2

I can sometimes be pretty good at that, can’t I?

Still, that statement alone doesn’t do much to help me understand your position and how I can make a constructive effort to solve what seems like a misunderstanding we’re having right now.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula 08/09/2016 at 15:36

3

I didn’t even know what to say when I read that.

I mean - once Zuck is educated (again, AGAIN) to what’s usually going on right under his nose, he usually does the right thing.

But some days I’m just like “Well, he lives in the same ecosystem as Peter Thiel, so ... I’ll just be moving to Valencia, Spain now.”

yamahog > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 15:37

3

If it was rocket science, at least I’d be formally qualified on the matter ;)

Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 15:38

2

Yeah, for all their talk about people connecting and sharing, this has a very chilling effect.

yamahog > Milky 08/09/2016 at 15:40

3

And the people making it so are the ones who could most benefit from actually reading and comprehending before jumping straight to knee jerk defensiveness.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Ash78, voting early and often 08/09/2016 at 15:48

2

Maybe it’s because it’s something they have no other option but to deal with every day. All day.

And you ... don’t.

qbeezy > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 15:49

8

I’ll leave these here: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetw…

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/jus…

The matter of the fact is that American society does not value my life as much as a white persons. There’s no second chances. I can’t reach into my glove box and get my car shit. I’ve been pulled over for completely bull shit reasons. Do you know what it’s like being held for matching a description of “black male 5'5-6'5'? Yes that actually happened. When regular ass people can get rowdy and shit in public and I can’t because I’m afraid I’ll be approached and apprehended cause I’m big and black. This country DOES NOT VALUE minority lives.

Xyl0c41n3 > pauljones 08/09/2016 at 15:52

2

Nah, not generally. Usually I smile when you pop up in a post, even if I’m on the receiving end of one your “constructive” mod comments :)

You have a knack for saying “knock that fucking shit off” in the best possible way.

The eye twitch was in regards to the end of your comment where you suggested that I should have expanded on that sentiment to Ash and explain why my eye was twitching. That assumes I hadn’t thought about doing exactly that but chose not to. It assumes I didn’t react with a very deliberate purposefulness.

You’re a rarity, pauljones, in that you can engage it conversations, even with people you disagree with, with a certain clinical detachment in an effort to see the whole picture. I’ve learned that about you over time, so I’m more willing to talk things out with you, muddling through the limitations of text communication to arrive at a better understanding of our respective viewpoints, be they similar or disparate. (This is similar to a conversation we’ve had before, if you’ll recall). But the same isn’t true of many people on Oppo. Judging by the conversation you and Ash subsequently had here, I’ve now learned he’s a lot like you in that regard. I didn’t know that before. That will inform how I interact with him in the future, if he is so willing to continue interacting, that is.

Hope that makes sense.

TheHondaBro > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 15:55

1

I wish I can star this more than once.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula 08/09/2016 at 16:00

3

Making it not only completely hypocritical, but an act with potential legal consequences as well.

(Also WRT the cops: How dare they??? I honestly didn’t think they had this much nerve.)

MUSASHI66 > TheHondaBro 08/09/2016 at 16:05

0

Thanks! I think this is the opinion of the huge majority of the people in this country. It is just far left and far right which are usually butt hurt.

Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 16:06

3

The cops always have that much nerve.

pauljones > Xyl0c41n3 08/09/2016 at 16:06

3

“The eye twitch was in regards to the end of your comment where you suggested that I should have expanded on that sentiment to Ash and explain why my eye was twitching. That assumes I hadn’t thought about doing exactly that but chose not to. It assumes I didn’t react with a very deliberate purposefulness.”

You know what? When you put it that way, that’s absolutely true. That was a pretty arrogant assumption on my part. I’m sorry about that; that was definitely not my intention.

LongbowMkII > Milky 08/09/2016 at 16:16

3

There's no reason for it to. Nothing in the post was incindary.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ > Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula 08/09/2016 at 16:32

2

I think it infuriates me because I know it doesn’t have to be like that.

I know some good ones.

#irony

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > OPPOsaurus WRX 08/09/2016 at 16:35

0

This argument will go back and forth forever.

Yes more whites are killed.

There are more whites to start with. Proportionally more blacks are killed.

The shootings tend to be in worse neighbourhoods, where there are a higher concentration of blacks. It’s reasonable to expect a higher casualty rate than one that is strictly “fair and balanced” between blacks and whites. Enough to make up the discrepancy? Not for me to say.

To my mind, those steps are actually a quite logical progression. I see it coming down to this:

WHY ARE THE WORST AREAS PREDOMINANTLY BLACK?

Simple answer, segregation and general unfair treatment. Blacks weren’t exactly appreciated mixing with the “superior” whites. Nor were they paid. But you know that.

From there we go to the phrase “there goes the neighbourhood”... but it has cause and effect reversed. The blacks didn’t bring down the areas, they went there in the first place because they weren’t treated fairly and that was where they could afford. So you have a hive of people living in or close to poverty, being treated like scum by everyone else. Historically what are humanity’s most violent moments? Yup... a large proportion stem from people in poverty getting treated like shit. Heck, you could argue that Nazi Germany came about by such circumstances.

So blacks are in a compromised position from the start, and because people tend to think correlation=causation they are victims of their circumstances in more ways than one.

As far as I can tell it comes down to “treat someone right from the start and don’t fight it every step along the way”, but as it’s too late for that now it’s all about damage control. It’s nearly too late for that too, and fuck if I can think of how to go about it...

***Bear in mind this in no way excuses those who ARE involved in criminal activity, whatever your race might be.***

Pixel > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 16:40

7

Wanna know why cops shoot people?

For attempting to buy a pellet rifle at Walmart .

For telling a cop he is licensed to carry and has a weapon on him exactly as the NRA says to.

For being out on a date and being asleep in their car.

But by all means, tell me about how black people wouldn’t get shot if they didn’t go around committing crimes.

MUSASHI66 > qbeezy 08/09/2016 at 16:40

0

That is unfortunate. I don’t know what to tell you, and I imagine it must suck. I presume that if I lived in a place where I was in a 13.2% minority, I might get pulled over for matching a description of someone more often.

But, there are second chances. I will bet you that there are infinitely more black people that have been pulled over and released than there are that have been pulled over and shot. Not every cop is an asshole. Not every cop wants to kill you.

One in three people in this country is a minority. I know plenty with normal lives, and they are not afraid of cops shooting them.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 16:49

1

Thank you.

Snacktastic Part III: the Return of the Spatula > Rooo sez BISH PLZ 08/09/2016 at 16:50

1

Yup—some of it is police culture though where the good ones might get suppressed and/or outmaneuvered by the bad ones.

MUSASHI66 > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 08/09/2016 at 16:50

0

For the post? You're welcome

qbeezy > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 16:53

5

I never said every cop is an asshole or that they are out to kill me. But there is a problem, a major one in that a man was shot and killed well within his rights. Another shot in Florida laying on the ground with his hands up COMPLYING. There is a problem, a racial problem in this country still. There is also a policing problem. Stop and Frisk ring a bell? If 99% of cops are good, which I believe as my father is currently an officer, should we ignore the 1%that are bad apples? And 13% had shit to do with that example. That was a bullshit description. That equated to literally almost every single person without skin color involved. I dont even know why I’m trying, your responses are undermining a real proven problem of prejudice against a people by authority. Driving while black is a thing. Being stopped for no reasons are things. Being followed in stores are real things.

MUSASHI66 > qbeezy 08/09/2016 at 16:59

0

I opened my comment with the statement that cops that do shit should go to jail. When you say you can’t reach for a glove box, that does not imply your are afraid of being shot? That how I understood it .

There are people being killed on regular bases by the cops. Some justified, some not, some white, some black. When not justified, cops should pay the price.

When cops pull you over because you match a description, you don't think it has something to do with the fact that you matched the description? You think cops pull you over to fuck with you just cause you are black? And your dad is a cop?

yamahog > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! 08/09/2016 at 17:04

3

JQJ - I can’t begin to tell you how disappointing it is to see people jump to get a word in before even reading the actual content. It would be great if more people actually read the piece (about media bias in the coverage of this shooting, and how it sets a narrative) before rushing to reinforce the narrative for the sake of reinforcing the narrative.

qbeezy > MUSASHI66 08/09/2016 at 17:08

4

“You think cops pull you over to fuck with you just cause you are black?”

Not sure where the hell youve been the past 30 years, but yes this shit happens. ‘Why are you here?’ ‘What are you doing’. Being pulled over for for completely bullshit reasons. Shit happens. Cause you don’t see it out hear it or know it not happening to people doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

‘When you say you can’t reach for a glove box, that does not imply your are afraid of being shot?’

I mean it kinda explains itself right?